Posts by Muddy Waters

41

Apostasy Trial - Part 5

by RayPublisher in

well part 5 was just put up on youtube!

this is the third 45 minute segment of the 3+ hour meeting.

topics covered include:.

Muddy Waters

I've been following your posts and story both here but mainly on jwstruggle.

I so admire what you've done and accomplished. I am also amazed by how long this JC lasted and how the "brothers" listened to you for so long. I'm so happy you got to make so many points! Hopefully something you've said will get through to them, or others who will happen upon your posts or site or youtube video.

Am wondering if they listened to you for so long because of their respect for you. It seems like some of them must have known you for years and because you were an elder, this gives you the extra "status" for them to hear you out for so long. To me, this shows they appreciate your qualities as a person, as an educated voice, as a compassionate and intelligent conscience-minded individual.

I wish they would have been able to answer more of your questions and observations, but of course this is impossible for them. All you get is the party line, and evasions and accusations.

They see your friend (your accuser) not as an enemy to you who would bring destruction and devastion upon you (in the form of their pharisaical edicts and judgments) but as a friend who only shows "concern".

You spoke so carefully, not letting them trap you. Good on you!! I felt like cheering at so many parts. I wanted to be in the room with you so I could show them, shake them, make them SEEEEEE!!! -- (but I would have messed up the whole thing, lol...!) You're dealing with dogma, indoctrination, fear.... imposed and imbedded in them through an organization of men. They can't see that "man has dominated man to his injury" and that they should NOT BE "putting their trust in men, to whom no salvation belongs...!!"

JWs use these scriptures and can't even see what it means. There's no getting through this blindness, unless they begin forming their own doubts and questions.

And so many JWs are sincere, they really believe they're serving God the way he wants to be worshipped and served... and you acknowledged that and said you respected that... but yes, what if they're being misled?? What if their leaders (the GB) are imperfect men?? These men claim to have special insight from God.... but.... ha. If that were so, why so many changes in teachings, why so many destroyed families, why so many cover-ups, why such double standards, why why why.....

Also loved the point you made about Christianity and their good works and their printing and distribution of Bibles.... they're taking care of the poor and widowed and orphans.... And how typical and cold-hearted was the elder's response (not surprising)..... that spiritual food is the most important, blah blah blah. You used the Bible and insisted they look at the bible.... loved it. Loved you showing them the scripture in James. And then their weak, lame reply that each individual person is free to do that at any time. Bah! If this were so, why is it not more encouraged??? We're supposed to knock on (mostly empty) houses and be involved in busy-work while stepping over homeless people and walking around people pushing shopping carts of bottles.... And meanwhile we fill out our time-slips and literature placement slips (has anybody noticed how there's NO MENTION on these slips for BIBLES placed??? There's only spaces for the society's books, brochures, RV's, studies....)

Oh yes, there are serious problems in the org. These elders must know this!! I hope they wake up....

11

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 09-23-2012 WT Study (FAMILY)

by blondie in

jw
friends

the oneness of.

what is the purpose of gods.

how do we observe the oneness.

Muddy Waters

Blondie, you have outdone yourself with this WT article and your keen perceptions into the JWs false teachings!!

Thank you again for doing this. I especially appreciated your comments on paragraphs 1, 2, 6, 7, 8…

and a further thought to paragraph 10… about a person bringing their gift to the altar and then realizing they need to make peace with their brother…. Well, we all know that this rarely happens. When people have problems with someone in the congregation, they tattle to the elders. Elders then form judicial committees based on these types of "heresay" evidence, without even revealing to the "accused" person who their accusers are. Bah!!

Also love your comments in paragraphs 12.

Ha, another comment from me about paragraph 13 and how we should "specifically avoid those who… speak falsehood." !!! Pot calling the kettle black????

Paragraph 15 really IRKED me. They're talking about Christ's relationship with the congregation as being similar to that of a husband and his wife. This is the PRIMARY thought of the paragraph, yet they just HAD to throw in the wifely subjection thing, when that illustration had NOTHING to do with the point they were trying to make.

Paragraph 16 -- UGH! That verse in Eph. 6:4, as translated in the NWT, really sets my teeth on edge. "Discipline and mental-regulating!" In the first version of the NWT they used the phrase "nurturing and teaching of Jehovah", then it was change to "nurturing and authoritative advice of Jehovah" and was changed again to it's present ugly and cringe-inducing wording.

And then there is the ugly and controlling way they say, "Parents who have taught those lessons successfully have worked in harmony with Jehovah’s administration."

Bah! Once again, the WTS has to take all the credit (because of course THEY are the ones who are Jehovah's "Administration".) Nothing is mentioned here about following the BIBLE or God or Jesus.

VERY INTERESTING that the great crowd will NEVER become "sons of God" (though the Bible does promise this to ALL). They can only hope, after a MILLENIA and another brutal trial, of becoming God's friend. Even though after coming through this, they will have the same perfect-man status as Jesus. I wonder how many JWs are beginning to SEE through this nonsense.... there must be many at the KHs who have to start wondering about all this!!

I found this to be a very revealing WT article.... full of hypocrisy and grandiosity!

106

What REALLY Convinced You To Leave/Lose Faith in JWs?

by Recovery in

id like to know what personally convinced you jws are wrong about a particular doctrine/practice, that they are not gods true.people and/or what made you leave emotionally/physically.

.

Muddy Waters

Ah…. I see that the person who started this thread may not have really wanted a sincere answer to his question, "What REALLY Convinced you to Leave/Lose Faith in JWs?"

I took his question at face value and answered in all honesty and sincerity. (I don't post much here, so am unfamiliar with many people who post here and any background posts). It seems that the thread has taken on a whole other purpose and meaning and the poster's original question was asked with perhaps a duplicitous intent.

I am really quite *done* with WT lies, hypocrisy, and duplicity. When a poster is trying to hide who they are and frame questions with an intent to deceive, mock, belittle, or abuse others in some way, it becomes a platform for their own ends. There is no room for debate or discussion. You have only a person with a closed mind, and we all know what dealing with a closed mind is like!

I'm beginning to feel sad that I posted my very sincere answer in a thread which may have had a whole other purpose. :(

Given the fact that there have also been many SINCERE answers to Recovery's original question, and he has not addressed ANY of them, but keeps insisting on his own line of thought, makes me also feel he is not looking for any common ground or basis for discovery. It seems that the ONLY posts he replies to are the ones which promote conflict.

Therefore, I shall ask Recovery this directly: Recovery, what do you think of all the sincere answers to your question you've received so far?

106

What REALLY Convinced You To Leave/Lose Faith in JWs?

by Recovery in

id like to know what personally convinced you jws are wrong about a particular doctrine/practice, that they are not gods true.people and/or what made you leave emotionally/physically.

.

Muddy Waters

I wish the bickering comments weren't interfering with what is otherwise a great thread.

For me, there were a few things that built up over time:

- the generation "re-adjustment"

- the blood fractions thing (this REALLY made no sense to me!)

- the unloving way the elders treated my family following a judicial committee, and how their edicts went way beyond the things written

But somehow I submerged all this… it was only when I was going to give my little grandchildren "MY BOOK OF BIBLE STORIES" that the blinders really fell off.

I looked at that book through their little eyes (they don't even know how to read yet) and was horrified. (If only I'd seen it that way when my own children were little!)

The pictures and images in that book are absolutely TERRIBLE and terrifying for young children. It started me thinking about the men who would produce such a book for little children... that they didn't have much sensitivity or insight into children. I could see how it was a book which used FEAR to instill "bible teachings".

After I lost faith in the GB, it was like a house of cards which crumbled and toppled to the ground. I suddenly saw that this was a man-made religion whose leaders could be absolutely CLUELESS and that their literature promulgated FEAR (and guilt and hate).

And after that, I discovered websites and Ray Franz's books. CoC really blew it out of the water. I read that book with tears rolling down my face. I knew the JW religion was not the truth.

- Muddy

21

What I am most ashamed of.........

by Xanthippe in

is not giving to charity while a jw.

this whole 'lets sit back and wait for jehovah to sort the world out while we do nothing' really gets to me.

there is so much to be done in this world, so many people doing good things but the jws just say bang on doors and sell watchtowers.. i did plenty of voluntary work in the jws pioneering my youth away but it was all so useless, now i do voluntary work to help people who want to be helped, as well as my job.

Muddy Waters

I've often felt that way as well... the WTS is NOT charitable in any way. Even when they say they help people in times of natural disasters, the organization is still NOT putting up its own money. They instead take up a contribution from the various congregations (usually the closest ones to the natural disaster) and use those monies (and then pocket the over-flow).

Then they print a nice article in their WT or Awake saying how wonderful they are in such a time of need.

44

Letter from elders to WT about Jonathan Kendrick and the WT response

by wolfman85 in

.

i don't know if these letters were posted here before , so i'm sorry if is something that all of you have seen already..

Muddy Waters

Whoops, double post. Sorry.

44

Letter from elders to WT about Jonathan Kendrick and the WT response

by wolfman85 in

.

i don't know if these letters were posted here before , so i'm sorry if is something that all of you have seen already..

Muddy Waters

In the book, Crisis of Conscience, by Ray Franz, he produces letters from the Society also without letterhead, the reason being that they are copies, by way of copy paper.... what the heck is that copy paper called... it's sort of bluey-purple and you put it in between two sheets of paper. These letters are dated from 1993, when the society could still have been using this (very now outdated) mode of copying. Even the type font suggests the use of a typewriter. (AHA! The word just came to me -- CARBON PAPER!) You younger ones here may not know what carbon paper is, but it was a very common way of making paper copies when one was typing a letter.

81

Help! I'm having serious thoughts about going back

by lola28 in

jw
friends

hello old friends, i've been thinking about going back and need you all to give me your thoughts on it.. the last year has been a horribe one for me, in the span of less than a year the following things have happened to me:.

lost my mom to cancergot hit by a carhad a professional set back that will cost over 600k to resolveended a three and a half year relationshipit just feels like every time i think things are going to get better something else hits me and knocks me down, a small part of me wonders wether i brought all these things on myself because i left the organization (yes i know how silly that sounds) and i have given serious thought about going back.

i need you guys to talk me out of it!.

Muddy Waters

You know what... we (we as in human beings) tend to magnify the bad stuff that happens in our life more than the good stuff.

Yes, some really bad stuff has happened to you. BUT think about this: when you were hit by a car, you weren't killed thankfully. You probably had wonderful people at the hospital who did their best to help you and put you back together in whatever physical way you needed.

You lost your mom to cancer, but that would have happened regardless of being in the org or not.

You say there's support at the hall, and yes that's true ONLY if you're an active JW. Their support is conditional. Have you any non-JW or ex-JW friends who have supported or helped you through the loss of your mom?

Business is really bad for a lot of people right now, in the org or not, because the economy is so messed up right now. There are a lot of people hurting. So this can happen whether you are in the org or not.

Ask yourself: What good things have happened to you since you left? Make another list. Think on those things.

When I stopped going to meetings and found out "the truth about the truth" I had tons of things happen in my life as well. Very negative things. I also thought that maybe it was because I left the org. (Funny how "they" can make you think that way). I read Steve Hassan's books (one is called, Combatting Cult Mind Control, which is an absolutely excellent resource! Almost vital reading for any ex-JW!!) You start to see how you "filter" everything and every event through your past "programming", and also because we've been conditioned that way at meetings. We always hear from the platform about people who leave and how messed up their lives became.

Well, think about this: how many people still "in" have messed up lives? How many JWs still contend with troubles and financial difficulties and sickness and cancer and illness and family break-ups and divorces and any number of other bad things?

When you say you have "support" from JWs, just what kind of support do you mean? Will they help you financially? Will they search for a job for you, will they help you with home repairs or shopping or gardening or housework? (okay, a very few might. But this is the exception, not the rule!) Most JWs "help" or "support" you with WORDS. Words, words, words. And yes, sisters are good for giving hugs with those words. The offer a sympathetic ear, but they really don't want to hear too much about your troubles and trials BECAUSE THEY'RE DEALING WITH THEIR OWN TROUBLES AND TRIALS. Most JWs are quick with sympathy, quick with words, but slow on practical help. And what are their solutions for all your trials and troubles?? FIELD SERVICE and MEETING ATTENDANCE. And if that doesn't seem to be helping, then DO MORE field service and meeting attendance and study and prayer. Must do more, more, more. And when you finally exhaust yourself and burn out and wonder how serving the needs of a publishing corporation can grant you any sort of relief from your troubles, you will be right back where you are now.

Sorry if I'm being depressing. Just trying to help you look at the situation objectively.

Love, Muddy

33

Sparlock: The Sociology of the former Jehovahs Witness community

by Las Malvinas son Argentinas in

jw
friends

thewatchtower bible and tract society has unwittingly unleashed quite a viral sensation within the ranks of its former members.

to summarise what has happened so far:- become jehovahs friend dvd is released.

it is an animated feature aimed at children with modern computerised graphics.- the antagonist of the relatively brief cartoon is a self-described warrior wizard by the name of sparlock which was obtained by caleb, the young subject of this material.- the unnamed mother in this dvd guilt-trips young caleb into disposing of his sparlock toy.- the video goes viral within the ex-jw community, with youtube videos being posted of the video.

Muddy Waters

This discussion is awesome! Love the comments and insights and sociological and psychological perspectives of what happens when one is an active JW.

322

My son was murdered today

by truman in

i have been on this site daily, almost from its beginning, since i left the jws in 2001, but i have been more of a reader than a poster, as you can see from my post count.

i know few here know me, although i know many of you through reading your posts.

maybe it is not right to ask for support, when i generally stay quietly in the background of this forum, but i want only to speak a human misery of the deepest kind.

Muddy Waters

I cannot imagine the pain of your grief right now.... so very sorry that this has happened.
It sounds like your son was a reasonable and intelligent young man that you can feel very proud of...

Although I do not believe that the organization is the "truth" anymore, I still hold that the Bible is God's word and that there is hope and comfort to be found in his words to us. Not sure if you believe that, but hope you may find comfort in whatever ways you need... through family, friends, websites such as this.... there will be difficult days ahead and there is no easy way to deal with the loss of a child..... again, so very sorry. Please know that you are not alone and you do not have to face this alone.

Much love, Muddy